Ep. 3 - It’s Never A Strategy To Remain Quiet with Nick Tilsen
A call for big, bad, bold courage.
What does true climate action look like when it’s rooted in sovereignty, resistance, and liberation?
In this powerful episode of A People’s Climate, Shilpi Chhotray sits down with Nick Tilsen—Oglala Lakota land defender and CEO of NDN Collective—to unpack the meaning of LandBack, the historic fight for the Black Hills, the release of political prisoner Leonard Peltier, and the deep ties between Indigenous struggles and Palestinian resistance.
From direct action at Mount Rushmore to building legal strategies against unjust laws, this conversation is a call for big, bad bold courage.
Key Topics
The LandBack movement as a critical climate solution
Nick Tilsen’s arrest at the 2020 Mount Rushmore action in defense of sacred lands and climate justice
The release of Leonard Peltier after nearly 50 years in prison and its importance for today’s activists
Parallels between Indigenous resistance and the struggle for Palestinian liberation
Legal strategies to defend environmental movements against criminalization
Practicing liberation in daily life and building a future rooted in justice
Resources to Explore
Nick Tilsen’s Podcast: LandBack for The People
Credits
Presented by Counterstream Media and The Nation
Powered by Wildseeds Fund
Host: Shilpi Chhotray
Executive Producer: Mindy Ramaker
Engineer: Francisco Núñez-Capriles
Project Manager: Marianella Núñez
Additional Research: Marianella Núñez
Nick Tilsen
Nick Tilsen, Founder & CEO NDN Collective. Tilsen is a citizen of the Oglala Lakota Nation, an Organizer, Social Entrepreneur, Community Builder and Movement Leader. Nick has over 20 years of experience in movement building, organizing and equitable community development. His work has impacted over 1500 Indigenous Communities throughout the world.
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A Peoples Climate with Nick Tilsen
Shilpi Chhotray [00:00:02] This is A People's Climate, powered by Wildseeds Fund , from Counterstream Media and the nation. I'm your host, Shilpi Chhotray Chhotray.
Clip [00:00:12] You may have seen these words on a hashtag or protest sign lately, land back.
Clip[00:00:17] EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin says his agency wants to drive a dagger straight into the heart of what he calls climate change religion. Greenpeace was ordered to pay energy transfer.
Clip[00:00:29] And Dakota access nearly $700 million in damages. President Trump's visit this year to Mount Rushmore drew new attention to a decades-long battle between Native Americans and the federal government over millions of acres in South Dakota.
Clip [00:00:45] Now here's what I'd do. I'd ask whether or not you think I will someday be on Mount Rushmore. We're here to let the city of Rapid City know only over our dead body.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:01:00] Today, I want to talk about decolonization, not as a buzzword or abstract theory, but as a critical, urgent part of any climate solution. How do we fight for a world that doesn't just pay lip service to justice, but actually centers democracy and sovereignty? The truth is, climate change is political. It's spiritual and it's deeply intertwined with privilege. For indigenous peoples, colonization isn't just history. It's the system that still shapes the land, the laws, and their daily lives. But indigenous people have always resisted. I'm deeply honored to chat with Nick Tilsen today, an Oglala Lakota organizer, land defender, and the president and CEO of NDN Collective. Nick has spent decades at the front lines of the fight for indigenous sovereignty and climate justice. I first learned about Nick through his arrest at Mount Rushmore in 2020. It was a powerful statement about the ongoing fight for indigenous sovereignty and land protection in the face of modern-day colonialism. You'll hear more about that in just a bit. I'm really excited to learn from Nick today and share this conversation with you. Welcome, Nick. Thank you so much for being here today and tuning in from your studio in the Hesapa, the Black Hills, South Dakota.
Nick Tilsen [00:02:20] Absolutely happy to be on here. Thanks for having me on.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:02:22] Wonderful. Well, I want to ground our conversation a little bit and start with your family's history, which is deeply fascinating and deeply rooted in activism. Your grandfather was a civil rights attorney who challenged the Minneapolis police. Your parents met during the 1973 occupation of Wounded Knee, which was a pivotal moment in Indigenous resistance. And so I want hear a little about your upbringing and how being raised in this family And this powerful lineage has shaped your path as an organizer.
Nick Tilsen [00:02:54] Political conversation since I was young. Conversations about what was happening in the world. Being able to be part of a traditional grassroots family from Pine Ridge that participated in land occupations and participated in ceremonies and standing up for the people. It kind of created an atmosphere of accountability. I kind of like, what are you gonna be when you grow up but what are gonna do? What are you going to do for your people?
Shilpi Chhotray [00:03:21] I want to dig a little deeper on the significance of where you live, the Hesapa. It is one of the strongest sites of indigenous resistance in the world. And it's absolutely breathtaking too. It's just a beautiful, spiritual, ecologically sacred place. However, on the flip side, it's also where Mount Rushmore is located, carved on stolen land with the faces of these. Colonizers who led genocide against your ancestors. For me personally, the irony is staggering.
Nick Tilsen [00:03:52] It's personal to me. I mean, at the age of nine years old, I went through a ceremony at Mato Tipila, which is also known as Devil's Tower. At a Sundance there, that's where I got my Lakota name, Tabloca Wakita, which means looking buffalo bowl. When you take the issue of Mount Rushmore, as that place being what is and was a sacred site, called the Six Grandfathers. And they stole that line and then they blew it up. Created Mount Rushmore, they created an international symbol of white supremacy and called it the Shrine of Democracy and continue to call it the shrine of democracy to this day. It tells you that the democracy that they're trying to enshrine is, quite frankly, a democracy of injustice, of racial inequality, and oppression of my people. And so here's where we find ourselves at the crossroads of this complex, complicated history.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:04:52] To piggyback off that, even Abraham Lincoln, which I'm not sure people know this, but of course, he's been celebrated as the president who ended slavery, yet he also signed off on the mass execution of 38 Dakota men in 1862, which is the largest state sanction execution in US history. One thing I'd love to hear more about is your personal activism at Mount Rushmore.
Nick Tilsen [00:05:17] So we'll have to go back to what was happening in 2020 to understand that action and what we were doing that was very intentional.
Clip [00:05:25] We are going to begin right now with breaking news, because the World Health Organization has declared the coronavirus outbreak a pandemic. President Trump plans to hold an Independence Day celebration Friday at Mount Rushmore in South Dakota.
Clip [00:05:40] George Floyd's death at the hand of Minneapolis police officers has sparked angry protests all across the country tonight.
Nick Tilsen [00:05:48] It was in all of those conditions. And we were sitting there and watching statues being toppled, statues of Columbus and Robert E. Lee and all of these symbols of injustice. And when it came to Mount Rushmore, well, it's not a statue you can topple. The only way to achieve justice in this situation is to get land back and to return that land and let our people decide what we want to do with it. We wanted to do two things on that day, bring the land back movement into the public psyche of people everywhere. And then locally, we wanted to reignite the fight for the Black Hills amongst the younger people. And I think we accomplished both of those things on that day.
Clip [00:06:28] One rock at a time, if it's starting with no rush mark, and it's not gonna end, it will never end as long as we have breath in our lungs, as long we have blood in our bodies. We will keep marching, we will keep shouting, we will be protesting. No, protecting, because this is our land and we're gonna take it back and there's nothing they can do about it. Who's land? Who's land? This is the...
Nick Tilsen [00:06:58] This is the land of the Oceti Sakowin. And we're prepared to stand our ground. Today has been a proud day to be Lakota. Today has a been a proud day to a be Indigenous.
Clip [00:07:10] We shut down both for three hours!
Nick Tilsen [00:07:15] And we did it a good way. We felt that power from our ancestors. … to each and every one of you.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:07:24] Now, I know you were arrested during that protest. What exactly were they charging you with?
Nick Tilsen [00:07:31] They ended up charging me with, this is shocking, but it was burglary and grand theft. The irony is we were literally there protesting the United States government's illegal taking of the Black Hills.
Clip [00:07:44] Coming in in a full... Fully outfitted, shields, face masks.
Nick Tilsen [00:07:57] Police hitting us with a police shield, and we obtained that police shield and we rebranded that police shield. We crossed out police and we put land back on it. We used it to defend ourselves. They were saying that being in possession of a police field, therefore they were charging for burglary. And then they were also saying that in the taking of the police shield that engaged in simple assault of a Police Officer, which you know, anybody knows from the videos that day, the only ones who committed any violence on that day was the police in the National Guard.
Clip [00:08:27] Now is armed. I don't know if they're military or police. The riot shield said police. Armed military in camo engaging with protesters. One has been arrested. Signs have been stripped from them and they are now clashing.
Nick Tilsen [00:08:39] I was facing almost 17 years, the charges were totally, completely trumped up. They came down hard because they were deeply embarrassed. Here you have a Republican president, a Republican governor, a Republican sheriff, county commissioner, chief of police. I mean, they were supposed to have this celebratory moment and it got disrupted. They didn't like that. They were deeply, embarrassed that President Trump was not welcomed here. And we made it very clear who was homelands. These were, and I think that's why they came down so hard. They wanted to make an example.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:09:10] Such a powerful example of direct action and absolutely a win. Why do you think land back makes people feel defensive? And I'm not just talking about Republicans, I'm talking about a lot of folks in general. You say land back, it's like they get a little concerned.
Nick Tilsen [00:09:28] They lock the door and look out the blinds.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:09:31] Even in movement circles, right? So I think we need to talk about this a little bit.
Nick Tilsen [00:09:37] Oh yeah, I mean, I think that white fragility is real, even in our movements and even in the people that we say that we're aligned with politically. There's a fragility around when people say exactly what they want and what they exactly, what they deserve and land back is gold. It's calling it what it is. They took the land, they took everything else with it. They took our education system, they took our food systems, they took economic systems, they took ability to govern ourselves. It's not about Western titles. It's about what happened when they took the land from our people and most wealth that has been accumulated and created in this country to make this one of the richest, most powerful countries in the world has been from the stealing of religious people's land. I would say land back as a mirror being held up to this democracy. A lot of times when the mirror is held up to you, when you've perpetuated and committed injustice, people don't like that. And that's when their fragility kicks in. They're like, whoa, this requires us to think radically different about our political reality. When we say land back, we're talking about some big things and structural changes that need to be made. And that makes people uncomfortable. But I'm always the first to say, if you're gonna create change, people gotta get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:10:59] I often get asked about my solidarity with the land back movement, and I really try to explain it's not just like a one-off campaign. This is a framework of how we can look at everything.
Nick Tilsen [00:11:09] Indigenous people have been fighting for their land back ever since it was stolen, but putting it and putting those words together, that creates a possibility of a vision forward, not backward, but forward. We're in the middle of a global climate crisis. Indigenous people steward about 80% of the world's ecological, biological diversity on behalf of all of humanity in a climate crisis, and we're in a time where we absolutely need indigenous people to be stewarding their own lands. To increase ecological biodiversity, to help all humanities, no matter what walks of life, no matter which political party. I think that sometimes people discredit it as just like a flag and a fist in the air, but it's actually a sophisticated movement to create and tackle some of the biggest problems facing humanity.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:12:00] Let's shift gears to another monumental win. This is the story of Leonard Peltier.
Clip [00:12:07] Native American activist, Leonard Peltier, was released from prison on Tuesday. The 80-year-old spent almost five decades in prison after he was convicted of aiding and abetting murder in the 1975 deaths of two FBI agents.
Clip [00:12:24] President Joe Biden, I write today from a position rare for a former prosecutor to beseech you to commute the sentence of a man who I helped to put behind bars.
Clip [00:12:35] I didn't kill nobody. Hell, I didn't shoot nobody. And there's no evidence that I did. Because they wanted revenge, and they didn't know who was responsible. And they said, put the full weight of American color red on Nutter Peltier. We need a connection. And when they say that, they don't have no rights.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:12:56] Nick, you and the NDN collective threw down hard for his release. You never gave up rallies or act action. You had some of the best legal minds on this case. And for you, you know, Leonard is an uncle. He's an elder. He is a relative, someone that was targeted and criminalized and locked away for defending your people. And now he's free. I want to hear about who Leonard is and what it's meant both personally and politically to help bring him home.
Nick Tilsen [00:13:27] Personally, it's just been talked about at every family gathering since I've been alive. They used to line us, us kids up, and we used to lick the envelope, fundraise for Leonard. I had wrote him a letter at the age of 13 to Leavenworth Prison. Told him that I would fight for him until the day he became free. He wrote me back. He said, I appreciate the help, but what's important in getting me free is to make sure that you always keep fighting for your land and fighting for you people.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:13:50] He gave you that message when you were 13. You're like, I'm not looking back.
Nick Tilsen [00:13:53] And it had a huge impact on me. Not that many times throughout history has indigenous people took on most powerful law enforcement agency in the most powerful colonial country in the world and outflanked them in one. And that's exactly what we did. And Leonard never gave up advocating for indigenous people and fighting for indigenous peoples, even behind the walls of being in maximum security prison for 49 years and often being silenced, there was no media allowed to go into the prison to interview him for almost 30 years because they didn't want him having a voice but he found ways around it and I think that's one of the attests to this is that when we when we are up against struggle it is never a strategy to remain quiet it is a strategy to acquiesce. Those things do not result in tangible results for our people. Speaking to what the power does, organizing does. That's what ends up actually creating change. And the fact that Leonard didn't give up, quite frankly, it's kind of a call to action to not give up in the moments that we're in right now. We could say, hey, it is too dangerous to organize under these conditions. It's too risky to do that. But the reality is, if we don't rise up, then there won't be a future for our People. Let Leonard Peltier and his struggle be a reminder to all of us. Of how much courage and tenacity that it's going to take in the moments that we're in today. All his sacrifices wasn't for nothing, that his sacrifices inspired a next generation of people to keep fighting.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:15:33] So I want to shift the conversation now because what's happening in Palestine isn't separate from what we're discussing here. The destruction of sacred indigenous lands and the resistance to that destruction is deeply connected to the Palestinian struggle. We're talking about 76 years of land theft, criminalization of resistance, militarized borders, and the mass slaughter of a people, and they're from the same shared colonial playbook. You yourself are a survivor of the Settler Colonial Project. Why do you think so many still struggle to see that connection?
Nick Tilsen [00:16:13] I think people are lazy. I think it's part of it is because there's a narrative war that's telling them something different. The same reasons why people won't acknowledge or understand the complexity of what's going on in Palestine is the same exact reason why when people hear land back, they're like, oh, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I mean, both of those things, it's because it requires you to acknowledge the history and it requires to create a political analysis of your understanding of what is happening. What has made it really simple is that the state of Israel would not have the resources that it has to engage in this illegal war against the Palestinian people if the United States government wasn't helping to fund it. The United States government would not the resources it has, to send to the state of Israel if they didn't have resources from the stealing of indigenous people's land to build this country into one of the strongest economic and democratic systems in the world. And that's why our struggle and our plight as indigenous people is directly related to what's happening to the Palestinian people. If we connect our solidarity together, actually even the act of us being in solidarity is a pain in their ass. It's a pain in their existence because our solidarity proves that their narrative is fucking wrong. The other thing is the broader issue of human rights. When you take indigenous rights, when you take the rights of children, the rights of women, the LGBTQ2S community, these are human rights that we're talking about. The right to live in peace, medical access, housing, food. These are basic human rights. And the reality is we have colonial countries like the state of Israel and the United States that are going after those rights. First we were savages, then we were hostiles, and then we're militants, then were radicals, and now we're terrorists. And the realty is those are labels that the United State states and colonial countries have always attached to people who push back against their narratives. And those labels are as old as this country is old.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:18:38] One thing I wanna bring up is I think it's actually really helpful for people to know or be reminded that you are Jewish on your father's side, right? Your grandfather helped shape how you understand and resist Zionism. I would love to know how you navigate those attacks, especially the weaponization of anti-Semitism. I think a lot of us are feeling that our solidarity gets twisted into something it's not. I think would be really helpful to hear how you've personally. Weathered this piece of it.
Nick Tilsen [00:19:10] Zionism and white supremacy is one and the same, and I'm just gonna call it what it is. These aren't just narratives. These are structural things. They're both structural realities that have made their way into all facets of government. The legal system, the political system, the monetary system. We're not just fighting a person or a set of persons. We're fighting a system that has been in place, that is trying to control the lives and land of my people. And so for me, I don't spend my time worrying about what the latest attack is from the latest Zionist to try to discredit me. A lot of times we get hyper-focused on who the messenger is. We get hyper focused on Netanyahu, hyper-focused on Trump, rather than focusing on the system themselves. We have to out-organize that system by making that system weaker. And so, because they want us to go after their spokespeople, because then they can be like, Oh, they're anti-Semitic. Look what they said.
Clip [00:20:10] When the ICC investigates Israel for war crimes. This is pure anti-Semitism. From the river to the sea is anti-semitic.
Clip[00:20:18] Those calling for a ceasefire are legitimizing anti-Semitism.
Nick Tilsen [00:20:24] When I was probably 10 years old, in Jewish culture, there's a time at Passover where the young people can ask questions to the elders. And it's kind of different than Lakota culture because in Lakota, culture, they tell you, ah, just be quiet, just listen. But in Jewish, culture they tell, you know, hey, this is your opportunity to ask questions. And I remember asking my grandfather, what does it mean to be Jewish? I know what it means to be Lakota. We have a language, we have land, we have culture, and I know those things, but I don't know where they know what it mean is to be a Jewish. And one of the things he said is that several points throughout the history of Jewish people, our people were persecuted. We have to stand in solidarity with people that are being persecuted today. And the act of doing that is the act being Jewish.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:21:08] As the criminalization of activists continues to escalate against genocide and also against indigenous climate movements, I think a critical piece we don't talk about enough is the legal strategy. And one of the things that probably helped keep you out of prison in what got Leonard out of his incarceration sentence was having these legal strategies in place from start.
Nick Tilsen [00:21:31] NDN Collective created a legal structure of NDN that was multifaceted in anticipation because history has shown us that when you speak truth to power and you start moving resources to the people who have been made powerless by a system, that system does not like it. That system pushes back against it. That system tries to say that you are. Criminal. And so we created several different legal structures in that you park different parts of work in different parts of legal structures because we have to be able to continue to navigate. I'll be the first to admit, like, what we have is not 100% bulletproof. And when there's unjust laws, I'm just going to say it, when there is unjust laws then we have to be willing to break them. We have to understand that there is risk and we to be smart, but we have to organize against that. Unjust laws, because if we don't organize them against them, then they become the normal.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:22:31] One example I'd like to bring up is a big climate related lawsuit where energy transfers trying to pin the Dakota access pipeline protests on Green Peace, demanding 600 million in damages.
Clip [00:22:44] For months, the Standing Rock Sioux and their allies have camped out on the banks of the Cannonball River in North Dakota. Their mission? To stop the Dakota Access Pipeline, a $3.7 billion dollar project slated to deliver crude oil from North Dakota to southern Illinois.
Clip [00:23:02] Jurors have decided that Energy Transfer's favor in its lawsuit against Greenpeace over damages caused by Dakota Access Pipeline protesters. And the penalty is massive.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:23:13] And I actually don't want to get too deep in that case because our listeners can look it up, but I want to focus on something you said in your deposition that was so powerful. Most tribal nations don't even know who Greenpeace was. This was indigenous led period. And for me, it sort of felt like this broader effort to erase indigenous agency and frame resistance as legitimate only when it's a white led environmental org or it's something that's externally orchestrated. I wanted to give you the opportunity to share if you had any reflections on what you stated at that deposition and on this case.
Nick Tilsen [00:23:50] One, like that's to state the obvious. Like this was also an attempt to paint a narrative about a struggle via the legal system. The lawsuit was originally filed by a very Trump friendly law firm, a very fossil fuel based law firm who wanted to try to hold somebody accountable for a resistance movement that happened that was almost very, very successful. They came up with this false narrative that there had to be a white NGO pulling the strings of this movement when this movement was of massive proportion of over 300 indigenous nations coming together. The reality is nobody controlled the strings in Standing Rock. It was a movement. There was Palestinian folks at Standing Rock, there was Black Liberation folks at standing rock. It was convergence. The legal system and the fossil fuel industry... Has spent so much time just extracting our resources. They don't even think of us as human beings. We're nobody to them. And our friends at Greenpeace, who came to Standing Rock upon invitation from the indigenous people, they were there taking our lead, not calling the shots over our lives. A lot of what I said in my deposition was to get the record straight and that this whole entire lawsuit, it's farce. It's also, they're trying to build a template of how do we go after non-profits and non-governmental organizations that help support human rights. Because if they can go after Greenpeace, then they can after anybody else too.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:25:17] They're trying to see how far they can go. And it's absolutely imperative we fight back. Like you've been saying.
Nick Tilsen [00:25:24] And this has been my mantra as of late, like we cannot quote unquote go under the radar. We can't limit what we say. We can stop organizing. The history has shown us when you do that, that's when your people go away. That's when you're exterminated. We have to be able to organize and we have to do it at every possible strategy, whether it be on the streets, in the narrative war, in the legal system. In the political realms. Like right now people, this big, bad, bold courage that we need from people in all walks of life right now in this, and the more people that rise up, the safer it is.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:26:06] I want to end with one last question, Nick. It's sort of a personal one. Do you think we'll get to a place in your lifetime where you don't have to fight anymore?
Nick Tilsen [00:26:19] I mean... I think that for me, the way that I see it is that, like liberation is not some destination somewhere. Liberation is not an island that we arrive on or some mountain top or some place that we arrived and then boom, I think we have to learn how to be liberated as we fight. And that we have do. Practices of liberation in our daily lives, in our daily work. And I think that struggle and resistance is positive too. That struggle and resistance also remind us to appreciate what we do have and that we always should be fighting for what we have. And no matter what happened to us throughout history, is it possible that the best days of our people are actually in front of us and not behind us? For answer to that is yes. What action does that invoke in us today? And I do believe that systems of oppression that took tens of years, if not hundreds of years can't to create, can be tore down way faster. And that's part of what excites me to keep fighting because I do think it's possible. I always just ask whenever people also see like my fierceness, they also see that I do it from a place of love. Because I do love my people and I love all people and I Love Mother Earth and I love the future that we're fighting for.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:27:57] Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for making the time. I know your time is very precious and we appreciate you being here with us.
Nick Tilsen [00:28:06] So thank you for having me on.
Shilpi Chhotray [00:28:10] This episode was personally meaningful to me. Nick shared his truth, and I am so grateful for that. His powerful words are a testament that this fight is about more than policy. It's about the lives, the cultures, and the sovereignty of those who've been left out for far too long. If this moves something in you, I hope you'll stick around. Thank you to Wildseeds Fund for making this podcast possible. This episode of A People's Climate is executive produced by Mindy Ramaker, with engineering and sound design by Francisco Núñez-Capriles. Additional research and support by Marianella Núñez. Recorded at Studio 132 and Skyline in Oakland. From Counterstream Media and The Nation, I'm your host, Shilpi Chhotray Chhotray. Until next time.